Ep 030: Keerthana Kunnath

A SHOT: To start, can you describe the photo that we’re gonna talk about?
KEERTHANA KUNNATH: Absolutely. This is a picture from my series “Not What You Saw.” It’s a series about female bodybuilders in South India. I’m an artist based between London and India. This was a project I started earlier this year, which is shot in and around South India, mainly in Kerala, and this particular picture was shot in Kochi. 

So how did you meet this person?
I was back home earlier this year. I wasn’t really doing much, so I was just thinking hard because I do tend to work on themes of women and queer people and the community quite a bit. So I was really thinking out loud and being like, “What can I shoot here which is not something similar to the other stuff I’ve done?” I was thinking about doing this martial arts call Kalari, which is this Kerala martial arts. I saw some women practicing it and thought that was amazing. It’s quite empowering—you know, women going out and learning self-defense. In that research, I actually stumbled across one of the female bodybuilders. I got to know that she is from Kerala, and I was just amazed. So I went on a whole stalking spree and found a few of these women. 

This is a project where all of the bodybuilders I met or wanted to photograph were in different parts of the state, kind of spread all across. So I had a friend [Elton John] who helped me put clothes together or do a little bit of hair and makeup. It’s not exactly a fashion shoot where we went crazy with that. I did sit with this idea for almost a month where I was just really thinking about what I’m trying to say or how I want to go about it. So once I started shooting, it was just one whole road trip where I went from one person to the next person to the next person. I think she was the third person. 

When you’re thinking about making a photo like this, what kind of specific preparation are you doing beforehand?
I’m someone with fashion as a background. So I’ve learned fashion photography. I was a fashion photographer earlier. I don’t know what exactly I am right now. I’m moving toward fine arts. It’s a tad bit of documentary, but I wouldn’t call it documentary, but the style resembles documentary photographers. This particular one, I was actually thinking, I know the main important story is them, but more than them being the center point, I feel like this is speaking a lot about the gender and beauty standards in the state, in India, and also women at large. I was also thinking about how I want to present them. One thing I was really sure of was I did not want to shoot them in a gym or a space where they’re working out, maybe in a later stage. But when you look at them, you can tell that they work out. 

On the day you’re actually making this photo, how do you get ready on the day? What is your morning like? What’s going through your head when you’re headed there?
So with some girls, I did not shoot them in a location where I was familiar. I know Kerala at large, but if I go to a smaller district, I don’t really know the in and out of it. So obviously I’ve done some online research about where I want to shoot, but then I have done a recce. And some of these girls were not exactly living in the city-city, so it was quite a logistical nightmare. I have a certain idea in my head where I’m like, “Okay, I want this kind of a background, which is Kerala,” but at the same time I don’t want to show them in a poor way. I don’t know if I’m saying it wrong, but I’ve seen quite a bit in India where you can easily show something in a very poverty-stricken way. As an Indian photographer, I’ve felt so many times where that is not the right representation of India. The story is not about the place, but at the same time, it does play a certain role in this whole picture. 

I remember in the early stages, I was thinking about god iconographies. When I was growing up, my family, my mother is extremely religious, so I had so many of these god or goddesses posters in these really divine kind of backgrounds—mountains, surreal beaches. The space had an aura. I was thinking in the morning, I can find something like that. So every morning I was a bit stressed about the place. I know with the girls, I don’t have to be worried. They have not done a photo shoot before, but they’ve gone for competitions, and they are quite confident, so I was not worried about how they would look in front of the camera. I was more worried about it syncing with what I had in my head. 

What’s your setup for when you’re taking a photo like this?
I did use one light. I think, in this one, I’m not too sure if I’ve used it. I did try some with flash, some without flash. So I shoot in a medium format. This is a picture which is shot on film. But initially I tend to do a quick burst with my digital camera to make them comfortable, to make myself get started with the shoot, and then I go in with the film camera. 

What’s an example of a choice you made that we can specifically see in this photo?
The drape. I remember adjusting that. That was me thinking very fashion photographer–like because the way she was sitting, I quite like the way the outfit is flowing and that curve which is forming. I think in this one, we did try a few different poses because I had also taken inspiration from old Malayalam movie posters, how actresses back then used to be made to pose. It was very voyeuristic. It was very coy. I wanted to take inspiration from those women but, at the same time, replace that coyness—I don’t know, the typical way of making a woman pose—into this extremely strong, confident woman. 

So you’ve posed this outside, with plants and trees and a building in the background. What does that setting give this photo that maybe an interior setting would not?
This picture, it’s everything about Kerala. There’s a side of me where I’m like, “There’s too much urbanization happening,” so we don’t really see any more quintessential Kerala homes these days. So when I saw that house, I was like, “That is a very beautiful element.” I do remember growing up in and around these houses quite a bit, and now it’s really difficult to see those because it’s all high-rise buildings. It was quite nostalgic for me to see that bit. And also, I mentioned there was an inspiration which came from earlier Malayalam movies, so this is also kind of a setup you would see quite a lot in those movies. It really shows our background, where we are coming from. There’s a certain part of nostalgia attached to it. 

When I met these girls, when I came across their profiles, I was really inspired by them, so I thought this could be one of those projects which could actually have an impact. Other people who are seeing this project, especially more women from Kerala or India, seeing that, they can recognize, like, “Hey, she is one of us.” It was not intimidating. I feel like maybe meeting a very muscular girl in a gym could be intimidating for me, being like, “Whoa!” But at the same time, when I see this picture, there is a certain sense of familiarity, which I would relate with. That was one of the key things I had in mind. 

I also want to photograph these girls in their houses, maybe with their families, or their mothers or sisters. That would also be such a huge contrast. It really does interest me, the certain roles women have to pick up because they are a woman. It would be quite interesting to juxtapose and place these female bodybuilders in that position of breadwinner, this “I can protect you” kind of a thing. I don’t know if it makes sense. But yeah, I did have that in my mind. 

In reading about your work, I got the sense that you’re a photographer who is searching for place. How connected do you feel to this world here?
I grew up here. I grew up in Kerala. I spent my entire schooling in Kerala. But then it was quite a traumatic time for me where I had a lot of childhood troubles. So this is also a world I really wanted to escape for the longest time. Even now there’s a certain part of me, which wants to escape. When I come back home, I like the initial first two weeks because it is home for me. My parents are here. But at the same time, I was always frustrated with my family or with the whole system or with the gender restrictions or the societal norms which came with it. I was someone who always tried to fight it. I was extremely rebellious when I was young. But then now I’m also trying to really unlearn so many of those things. Now I’m trying to understand the root cause of why I felt a certain way.

Now I’m based between London and India, and I mainly live in London. And I think London has become home where I know I can escape the troubles which come from home, but then every six months I’m back in India. That’s also something I can’t really escape. It is still my world. I’ve been here for almost a month. My grandmother is extremely unwell, so I haven’t actually been able to touch my work. I haven’t had this long a break from my work at all. It almost reminds me of what life used to be like, I don’t know, 15 years ago. Everything was surrounded by this world. I’ve felt like my other part of life is almost like a dream, so I feel really disconnected from the other side of life. My brain keeps switching between the two. 

Did leaving India affect how you might approach a photo like this?
Absolutely. I think my photography has really shifted over the years. I’m from a design background, and I used to work for a jewelry brand before I decided to become a full-time photographer, which was when I moved to London. Photography was more like a hobby, and I used to shoot for different brands and do a little bit of campaign stuff. So I started from this and then went into a completely personal work kind of space. This space is something which I only discovered after moving there, getting inspired from so many artists who actually use photography as a medium to express what they’re going through in their life. It has shifted quite a bit. 

How did you learn that? Was it school or…?
I wouldn’t say it was school. I did fashion photography in school. I joined the course and then realized it was not the right course for me. But I did end up finishing it. I would give a lot of credit to my mentor, Kalpesh Lathigra. He is a mentor and a good friend who actually kept inspiring me to make personal work. Around my graduation time, I was coming back to India, and I was thinking about doing test shoots. He was like, “Kee, just go and photograph your home.” I talk a lot. I talk about my life, the past, everything else. He’s like, “Just talk about home.” Initially I did not understand what he was trying to make me do, but then once I went there, did it, I was still unsure of what I was doing. Then slowly and slowly it started uncovering, and I’m like, “Oh, my god.” It is actually helping me to understand myself as a person and as an artist. 

Can we talk a bit more about how you considered what she would be wearing in this photo?
Absolutely. One thing I really wanted was I wanted them to be wearing traditional Indian clothes, but it could be styled in any way. It could be styled from an inspiration, like, one of the girls was dressed in a fisherwoman outfit, which is the checkered one. This certain one, it’s like a dupatta, which is like a shawl, which my friend had made it into a dress. We didn’t really have a lot of outfits choices. We were playing around with what we had at our house, or we went to the market to pick out random fabrics. 

What has the clothing allowed you to examine or explore here? I think you’ve spoken before about how by referencing the styling of old movie posters, you were able to confront these ideas of how women should exist in the world.
In a lot of ways, women used to be portrayed, especially in movies in India, extremely as a subject of desire, and also, there were certain codes of conduct in the space or in the society where I come from. I was never allowed to wear sleeveless clothes or, you know, shorts or any of those things. So now, even though things are changing, what is the line which actually makes from decent to indecent. For a woman, we all wear saris, so showing a part of your belly was considered a decent woman. But at the same time if the same girl wears a crop top, that was considered indecent. I don’t know if it makes sense to someone who’s not from here. I had asked my father. He would not let me wear crop tops when I was young, and I remember asking him, “But mom’s wearing saris. Her stomach is out there, so that’s completely fine.” And they didn’t really have any justification for it. And it’s also not something which was decided by a woman herself. So I feel like, whatever you are comfortable with wearing or what part of the body you want to show, it should be up to you. If you’re comfortable with it, then I don’t know if there should be a question of decency or indecency. 

Maybe this is putting it in a very dumb way, but I’m curious how you consider this picture: Is this a sexy photo?
I don’t know if it’s a sexy photo. We did have saris, but it was important to show their bodies. For her especially, her calves or her legs were extremely muscular and strong, so we needed to make sure she was wearing outfits where she could actually flex those muscles. Even though we had some options, we couldn’t put [a sari] on her because that was going to cover her body parts.

Now if you ask me if it’s a sexy photo, maybe it is a sexy photo. I feel like, yeah, she absolutely looks sexy, but what is sexy for me… This is again something I struggle a lot with. Llet’s say after living in London for a couple of years or even after moving out of the house or being exposed to fashion or magazines or that side of the world, I feel extremely normal to wear a bikini, or if I see a woman in a bikini, I’m not gonna stare. But at the same time if you change the context of it, if I see someone like that in my hometown, I would be a bit concerned for that person because I know the space which you are in. People are going to make you uncomfortable because they don’t find it decent clothing for the space. Even for these girls, they have to wear a bikini for their competition. For me, I was extremely comfortable if they were wearing a bikini in the picture, but through our conversations, I understood that they are not comfortable with that. They’re like, “Okay, we have to wear that for a competition,” but there’s a certain part of them that has shame attached to it because they’re like, “Oh, I don’t think our parents find it decent enough as an outfit or the way people are staring at us.” So the context of when and where really matters. But that’s something that I’m still struggling to understand. Where do you cross the line? Where I’m seeing nipples through the shirt, it is not a big deal for me. I’m completely okay with it, but in this outfit, it was a bit see-through, and she was actually uncomfortable, but I remember editing that bit out.

And maybe in a certain way it is sexy. For me, being sexy means being extremely confident. Confidence is sexy. She’s looking stunning. She’s so confident. She’s so graceful, and I feel like, yeah, this is a sexy photo, but the term “sexy” could be quite derogatory to a lot of people, so that’s something I am careful about, which is why I’m like, “If you think you’re looking sexy, you are looking sexy, but if you’re thinking you don’t want to look sexy, then maybe it’s not sexy.” It’s a personal thing, I feel. 

In this photo she’s crouched down. Her knees point toward the right side of the frame, and she’s pivoted her torso to face the camera. Her right arm is lifted to flex her biceps. Even though you can see her muscles, there’s a softness to her pose here. So I guess I wanna know, what’s your own relationship to strength?
I’m a very weak person. My relationship to strength… What do you mean, like in terms of physical strength?

Yeah, or however you would want to consider it because I guess physical strength translates from a photo into meaning many different types of strength. 
Right. I’m not a physically strong person, I would say. But at the same time, I feel like I’m mentally very strong because also, as a woman, to actually deal with a lot of problems in this certain environment requires a huge amount of strength. So for her, even this picture there’s a physical element. She’s a female bodybuilder, which is strong, muscular, which is amazing, but at the same time, I feel like there’s an certain element of an overall strength, which comes with this personality of wanting to come out of those gender standards or beauty standards in a society which might not be considering it, I don’t know, appropriate. So there’s a strength to actually overcome those challenges. Probably I think “strength” is not a word I would associate with physicality, and maybe at least it’s probably the background I come from. There’s a certain element which is about challenging all those things. So when I call [someone] a strong woman, she’s someone who is challenged and come out of all those society expectations and pressures and problems. 

I want to talk a bit about how you regard having an image like this as part of your work that you share with the world. When you make work like this, do you feel like you’re creating a document, like a record of this person, or is it something that’s more like a personal expression for you?
I think it’s a bit of both. In a lot of work which I make, even though a lot of it is portraiture, there’s a certain element of myself which is in there. So for this girl, or when I actually connected with these girls, I found most of them were pretty rebellious young girls. A lot of stories we shared made a lot of sense about how we stood up against societal expectations or even our own families, just coming out of those societal expectations of being a woman or being a female, how you act or how you present. All of those are being challenged in something like this. At the same time, I think these girls are extremely important, so I feel like that’s also a strong document of this time where these girls have started their career. Like Boomi only started a few months before we shot this picture. But there’s another girl, she’s been doing it for like almost seven years. This is still a very niche career or sport for women in South India. So now I’m really hoping maybe in the coming years there will be way more of them. These girls are actually paving the way for the future, so it could also be considered as a document. 

When making this photo and then having this work as a piece of art that you made, what do you feel you that you owe her?
I owe her so much. The fact that they were really comfortable with the collaboration, I was extremely grateful for that because when I started reaching out to these girls, I had reached out to probably more than 10 maybe, and out of which, only a few got back. One of the girls who actually got back, we had a bit of a funny thing where I had reached out to all of them on Instagram, and one of the girls messaged me being like, “Nude or semi-nude?” I was a bit like, “Okay, what’s going on there?” So I replied to her being like, “Oh, it’s actually not a nude shoot.” Then she got back to me being like, “Oh I’m so sorry. I get a lot of creepy messages like this on my social media,” because these girls actually do put pictures of their body out there, and there’s so much social-media creepiness which comes with it. Even after having that conversation, it reminded me of the kind of challenges women have to go through to deal with, I don’t know, everything that is going on just because of the fact that you are a woman. 

So even before meeting these people, I was really not too sure where to photograph. My hometown is like a beach town, so initially I was like, “It would be great to get all those girls to the beach and have that beautiful beach background,” but in the end, some of them had extremely strict diet routines or workout routines, and they said they couldn’t travel. Also I can’t really expect them to travel because they don’t know me. So even for them to trust me, to give me the time to photograph them, take out time from their routine or schedule, because all of these girls workout, they have their other day jobs. I was extremely grateful for this collaboration. They really did trust me because a lot of them never have been photographed before. 

I mean, it sounds like they’re navigating their world of how often they say yes to those photo inquiries because they’re making money with that in some way or they’re using that to promote themselves. So it is a part of their life, but maybe just not in the way that you approached it. 
Yeah, some of the girls did change into leggings where they were with their supplements. They were doing content for their social media after the shoot, but I shot for that as well because I’m like, “You’re doing this for me. I’d absolutely love to do an outfit for you for your social media.” Plus, I remember when an article came out in the British Journal of Photography, I had shared the article with these girls, and it was especially Boomi who messaged me like, “You made us so proud.” I felt like they really enjoyed that kind of spotlight… I wouldn't call it spotlight. It’s more about someone actually celebrating and appreciating their journey. I think that was quite special for them. 

I read you say, “Everything I create is for my younger self.” What would a photo like this have given you?
I think great confidence. Even now it really inspired me. When I was growing up, I really did not see a lot of women who challenged these things who inspired me. I remember even being in school, I was told off for pretty much everything. I was like, “Why am I the only weird, crazy one who’s getting into trouble, who’s doing all the things I shouldn’t be doing?” And I did feel really bad about it. I was like, “There’s something wrong with me.” Now I’m actually so glad I did that because nobody did that back then, and now I’m seeing a lot of girls who are actually coming out and doing whatever they want, and a part of me is really happy about it. We need to challenge the system, which was not even made by women. We are dealing with the repercussions of like, “Oh, you can’t go out of the house after a certain time; you cannot wear these clothes” because it does not seem socially appropriate or decent. I’m like, “Appropriate for who?” If we are comfortable, who is someone else to question? Back in the day, I used to question it so much, and I used to get in so much trouble. Now my parents are on board, but I feel like these conversations are somewhat helping. Plus, now I see a lot more women coming out and asking those questions. Yeah, even this kind of a picture would really be like, “Whoa, that’s a female bodybuilder, and she actually looks like me.” That would have really inspired me because I had gone to karate classes when I was young. My father forced me to go for that. I was the only girl in there because my father’s like, “Okay, it’s really important for self-defense.” I stopped the classes because I felt so awkward. I was the only woman there. But my father was quite progressive even back then, now thinking about it, even though he was really strict. I feel like that was really important, even though I stopped it. Now I’m seeing the change where people are going out and doing these activities and pursuing what they want more. Things are moving forward, for sure. 

So this year at the Olympics, Imane Khelif, a female boxer from Algeria, won a gold medal amid false accusations online that she was not actually a woman.
Yeah.

I’m wondering if something like that affects how you regard this image.
I was really angry when I read that news. It was again showing the trouble women have to go through, especially people of color, and also because people don’t fit in a certain standard of this Western idea of what beauty is or what a woman is. Even something like [in this photo] she is dusky… Not even dusky. She’s really dark. Her skin tone is actually a very beautiful Indian skin tone, and that is also something which we had a lot of shame attached to the skin tone. I still remember being younger, and including me, a lot of us used those fairness creams to have a lighter skin complexion or to look more like a white person. So I feel like there’s a certain element which we were all trying to replicate the West, not really take pride in what we are. But this picture, there’s a certain element which is clearly saying, “She is this Indian girl.” She’s extremely proud of that bit of her, that certain element of her. But even the Olympics, Imane did mention the kind of struggle she had to go through for that whole journey, to even get to that space compared to the other counterparts who might be coming from a privileged space. Everyone’s journey is different, but at the same time, there are so many challenges which come with the fact that you’re not coming from a progressive country or a more privileged space. I feel like that’s something people don’t talk about much. 

What do you think we can learn about you from the choices you made with this photo?
Sometimes it’s about giving someone that platform. When I met these girls, some of them wished they could go into it or get into this sphere much earlier, but they didn’t even know about this. For me as well, there are certain elements where I had to come out and learn in a much later stage in life because there was no one else who paved that path. There was no one else to tell us “Hey, go ahead and do this.” We almost had to try everything and do it in the trial-and-error method and figure things out along the way. 

As a photographer, I’m all about giving space to the woman or celebrating stories of individual women or queer people or communities or underprivileged communities. A lot of these women, including me, didn’t have that platform to actually come out, express or really didn’t have the privilege, probably which is why a lot of my work revolves around these things. Maybe it’s important that we come together as a community and support each other. For me it was photography because I didn’t really have any mentors or I didn’t really know any photographers up until a much later stage of my life. I studied design, and I never thought I’m going to go into photography. If someone had given me a camera when I was young or actually appreciated that art, probably I would gotten into this much earlier, which is similar to a lot of their stories. They’re like, “We love bodybuilding, but we’ve never seen an Indian bodybuilder, or a female bodybuilder, when we were growing up.”

The name of the series is “Not What You Saw.” This is not the kind of things which you’ve seen growing up. We almost had to actually make that or become the first people in our family or our society to come out and do that. This particular picture, whoever sees this, especially people from my background, I was hoping this would inspire other people. Whoever’s gonna see this, probably a younger girl who maybe they don’t even know bodybuilding, but by knowing this, you want to know more about this person or challenge those things. Sometimes it could also be through the way they’re dressed. Maybe if someone wants to get inspired by that, I hope they get a chance. 

What’s something other than photography that’s been feeding you creatively lately?
I used to paint quite a bit. So now I’m slowly getting into painting. That’s something I used to do quite a bit before I even got into photography. Photography became my main thing and then moving to London, moving countries, everything… Life took over, and I had to put painting in the backseat. So now I’m really thinking to find ways to bring back that part of me. 

What does painting let you do that photography doesn’t?
With photography, I’m a big planner. But when it comes to my painting, I do the most random, abstract stuff. It’s so much more feeing. Photography is freeing, but now I’ve also put that pressure of really thinking hard before I take that picture. Photography has slowed me down, and yeah, I think too much when it comes to photography. I don’t just take a picture. Maybe I want to go back to just taking a picture. But versus painting, I can just paint without thinking because it’s not really meant to be something. It’s just an experience which is so freeing and flowing for me.

Interviewed on October 24, 2024.
(This transcript has been edited for brevity.)

Links:
Keerthana Kunnath
British Journal of Photography: “In India, female bodybuilding is as challenging as it is rewarding”